炮火先于曙光照亮加沙，保加利亚人重拾柴火取暖，悲观依旧弥漫华尔街……新的一年就这么走向你我……新年不能消解分歧，新年不能化除争端，新年不能阻挡坦克，新年无法浇熄战火，新年不能扫除饥荒，新年不能避躲灾祸……新年带来欢乐，新年也无法抹平悲伤……历史滚滚向前，现实
一如既往。愿上苍保佑你我。
――编者
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| 阿米尔・欧尔简介 当代以色列著名诗人，1956年出生于特拉维夫，出版过8部诗集和5部译作集，作品被翻译成30多种语言，在欧洲和美国出版过8本书。曾获得过以色列总理奖、文化部长奖、伯恩斯坦奖和富布莱特奖等，先后受邀英国牛津大学、美国衣阿华大学、德国海因里希・伯尔基金会，以及五大洲诗歌节，并曾为巴勒斯坦解放组织工作，担任过联合国“和平诗人”协调人等职务。 | 易卜拉欣・纳斯那拉简介 巴勒斯坦著名诗人，1954年出生在约旦首都安曼郊外的难民营并在那里长大，双亲都是巴勒斯坦人，1948年，即以色列建国的次年，从故乡逃难到约旦。从小他就在烟厂，采矿场，车站等地做童工，并曾沿街叫卖。虽然如此，他还是接受了基本的教育，后来在沙特的一个极为偏远的沙漠地带教书，他的第一部长篇小说《高烧的草原》就是关于那两年的生活。后来他回到安曼做了18年的记者，并通过写作成为最有影响力的巴勒斯坦诗人和作家，担任过10年的文化官员。2006年以来，他全身心地投入写作。 |
问:您现在在哪里？感觉安全吗？
阿米尔(下简称阿):I'm in Tel Aviv, and it's pretty safe here.
(我在特拉维夫,这里相当安全。)
易卜拉欣(下简称易):Feeling safe is a complex issue for Palestinians in exile,I now lives in Jordan.
(我在约旦,对流亡的巴勒斯坦人来说,安全感是个复杂的概念。)
问:你是哪里出生和长大的,你现在做什么工作？
阿:I was born and grew up in Tel Aviv. I'm a poet,and the chief editor of Helicon Poetry Society.
(我在特拉维夫出生和长大,我是个诗人,担任HELICON诗歌协会会刊的主编。)
易:I was born and grew up in the Wehdat Refugee Camp near Anmman, now my job is writing, novels and poems.
(我在离安曼不远的一个巴勒斯坦难民营出生并长大,现在是自由作家,写诗和小说。)
问:你对加沙的战斗和形势有何看法？
阿:It's an on going tragedy.The aim of organizations like Hammas is genocide, and they fight behind sick people and children.However, my heart pains for the civilians in Gaza.Hammas is everybody's enemy. I think we need to create here one civil state, regardless of nationalities, languages and religions, and the sooner, the better.Israel should make peace with the PLO and crush Hammas.
(那是正在上演的一出悲剧。像哈马斯这类组织的目标是种族灭绝,他们躲在孱弱的人和孩子后面发起进攻。可是,我的心感到疼痛――为加沙的平民。哈马斯是所有人的敌人。我想我们需要创造一种状态,无论什么民族、语言和信仰,都能和谐共处,越快越好。以色列应该与巴勒斯坦解放组织一起缔造和平,战胜哈马斯。)
易:What is happening in Gaza is not a fight,it is cold-blooded killing. Gaza is a city that fell under Israeli occupation 42 years ago, it been under siege since years where no access to food, medicine, fuel or any other basic life needs and no access to the outside world, it is actually a big prison hosting 1.5 million Palestinians. The occupier is Israel who has one of the strongest army and weapon in the world, the Palestinian resistance is trying to defend itself and the Palestinians with very limited means and simple-home made weapons. In addition there is on the international arena a horrible acceptance to what is Israel doing.What is happening is shameful;it is one of the shames that would haunt humans on this planet for ever.
(加沙正在发生的恐怕不能称为战斗,而是血腥的屠杀。加沙这座城市在42年前被以色列占领,长年以来被切断从外界供应食物、医疗、燃料或其他基本生活用品的渠道,更像一个大监狱,关押着150万巴勒斯坦人。占领者是拥有世界上最强大军队和武器的以色列,巴勒斯坦人的抵抗只是为了捍卫自己,他们只有少量简陋的自制武器。更有甚者,以色列正在做的事情在国际上被普遍接受。那里正在发生的事情令人羞耻,那是这颗星球上发生的最值得人类羞耻的事情之一。)
问:你在加沙有亲友吗？你是否去过那里？
阿:Yes,I know some poets, video artists, photographers and culture workers there. Beautiful people. I've also worked with the PLO affiliated “Palestinian Forum” there.
(当然,我认识那里的一些诗人,视觉艺术家,摄影师和文化工作者,他们都是非常可爱的人。我还为巴勒斯坦解放组织的一个"巴勒斯坦论坛"工作过。)
易:I have some friends-Palestinian writers living in Gaza. I have never been to Gaza physically but I am attached to Gaza in my soul,in fact many of my writing in poetry and novels are about Gaza and Palestinians in Gaza which made some critics think that I am from Gaza because my writings were so passionate as if some one is reflecting a life lived there. In a situation as horrible as the one we are living now, I think many writers and people from all around the world feel that they are Gazan, because what is happening is touching the live conscious of people everywhere as if Gaza is the city of all the world.
(我有许多巴勒斯坦作家朋友在那里,虽然我自己没有到过,但我的灵魂却维系在那里。事实上,我的许多诗歌和小说是关于加沙和那里的巴勒斯坦人的,而且情真意切地反映了那里的生活,以至于有些批评家以为我就生活在那里。那里的情况是如此恐怖,我想全世界的作家和人民都会感觉自己生活在加沙,那里正在发生的事情深深触及其他地方人们的感觉,加沙是属于全世界的城市。)
问:在这场冲突中,巴以双方的作家和知识分子都做些什么？
阿:We all grieve about this situation. The suffering of civilians is devastating. My friends there suffered themselves from the Hammas terorists. One of them was beaten and robbed by their activists. We all pray this people will vanish from history, and especially won't educate the next generation in Gaza.
(我们都为眼前的局势感到悲哀。平民正遭受蹂躏。我在那里的朋友受到哈马斯恐怖分子的迫害。其中一个遭到毒打和抢劫。我们全都祈祷那些坏蛋能够从历史上消失,特别希望不要在加沙的下一代人中间蔓延。)
易:Writers and intellectuals are very active in trying to expose what is the real situation and using their relations with in ternational writers'community. On the other hand, there is the writing in all forms and there are other forms of involvement like taking part in rallies and demonstrations as individuals and as writers reading poems and statements. Writers are also signing petitions and initiating with the support of civil society and human rights organizations a process to bring Israeli leaders to international court for war criminals.
(作家和知识分子正在积极努力地揭示真实情况,利用他们与国外作家之间的联系。与此同时,他们以各种形式写作,或者亲身参与游行示威,朗诵自己的诗歌和声明。作家们还在请愿书上签名,寻求文明社会与国际人权组织的支持,呼吁将以色列领导人以谋杀罪带到国际法庭审讯。)
问:假如你在别处,比如国际诗歌节上遇到巴勒斯坦/以色列诗人,你会与他或她握手吗？
阿:Yes indeed. Despite the situation, poets are first of all free thinkers and don't serve governments and politics.
(是的,无论如何都会的,诗人首先是自由的思想者,不从属于政府和政治。)
易:Till now there are no indications that Israeli writers, except for very few, are able to have a human perspective. This war on Gaza has again proved that many Israeli writers are either supporting their government in the blood shed or just went into silence, in fact this time Israeli writers are supporting the killing of civilians like never before. Israel now, writers and leaders, left and right wings, looks to me like one solid mass that resembles an army tank.
(直到今天,尚没有以色列作家(除了极个别)有人性的观察。加沙的战争再次证实了许多以色列作家要么支持政府的血腥屠杀,要么保持沉默。事实上,这次以色列作家比以往更支持杀害贫民。现在的以色列,无论作家还是政客,无论左翼还是右翼,在我看来是一个坚固的集体,就像军队的坦克一样。)
问:你有写过和巴以冲突有关的诗吗？如果有,请你展示一首。
阿:我写过一首诗叫《野蛮人》。
野蛮人
我们并非枉然地等待野蛮人,
也并非枉然地聚集在城市广场上。
长者们并非枉然地穿上长袍
演练起他们在仪式上的讲话。
我们并非枉然地捣毁自己的庙宇
为上帝竖立起新的庙宇;
我们有时也焚烧自己的书籍
它们对某些人来说毫无意义。
先知预言了野蛮人的到来,
从国王手中夺走城门的钥匙。
但是,当他们披上大地的服饰,
他们的习俗成为了盛大的习俗;
而当他们以我们的口吻下达命令
我们再也不知道什么时候
野蛮人已经来到我们中间。
易:No,I did not write any new poems, perhaps because I feel that many of my old poems are quite reflective to the current situation which has been going on and on for the Palestinians for more than 60 years. Few years ago, I published a collection of 30 poems under the title “Mirrors of Angels”about a girl in Gaza of four months old that died because of Is raeli bombing. The following is a poem I wrote also years ago about the killing of Palestinians.
(这次我没有写新诗,也许我感觉以往写的许多诗足以反映现在的状态,这种状态对巴勒斯坦人民来说已经持续了60多年。就在几年以前,我出版了一本30首诗歌的集子,标题叫《天使的镜子》,讲的是加沙的一个四个月大的小姑娘死于以色列的轰炸,下面是一首我几年前所作的诗――《鲜血》。)
鲜血
早安是他们的鲜血,
晚安是他们的鲜血；
他们的问候和他们的消息,
他们的故事,他们的担忧；
他们的教堂和他们的清真寺,
他们的家,他们的窗户
他们的爱情和憎恨,
还有羞愧难当的耻辱
一个扩张的空间！
这是他们母亲的故事
讲给孩子们听。
这是玫瑰的消息
传达给了树液；
他们故乡的鸟儿和风,
他们的战斗和停顿,
他们的笑话,虽然他们被袭击
他们的鲜血:他们祈祷的手臂
祈祷是他们的鲜血！
他们不想被树木责备,
也不想被屋顶上的月亮责备。
一支渴望河流的歌
他们不想被它责备
他们也不感到失望
因为希望仍含在
孩子们的眼睛里；
那些小山上的橄榄树
也还没有失去希望
他们是大海的同志,
是河流的朋友。
他们是橄榄树的幼芽
是田野里的婴粟
他们是树上的绿叶
是河流的童年
他们是穷人的麦加
他们是破晓的道路
他们是岩石里的笑声,
是秘密和启示。
早安是他们的鲜血
晚安是他们的鲜血
问:是否存在一种可能性,巴以人民将来会成为朋友？你能预见这场冲突或战争的结果吗？
阿:As individuals, the possibility is already here, but as so cieties and cultures it's more complicated. Politicians on both sides have misused the conflict for too many years to gain power. Something in the overall attitude of people on both sides has to be transformed to achieve peace.(作为个体,这样的可能性已经出现,但作为社会和文化,这就比较复杂了。在过去的许多年里,双方的政治家都在滥用这场冲突来获取及维护自己的权利,只有当双方人民的态度有一点点改变时,才能赢得和平。)
易:Nowadays, the air we breath is full of blood smell, the things we see are all blood red, the rights of Palestinians are smashed by bombs and tanks, it is so difficult to think about the future when a person is not allowed to live the present. Peace seems so far away when occupation is continuing and the killing is continuing.
(如今,我们呼吸的空气里也充满了血腥味,我们所能见到的是一片血红,巴勒斯坦人的权利被炸弹和坦克粉碎。当一个人连生存都十分困难时,他是很难想象未来的。占领仍在继续,屠杀仍在继续,和平是如此遥不可及。)
问:你如何看待巴勒斯坦解放组织和哈马斯？(这个问题是专门给易卜拉欣的,我告诉他如果不便他可以不回答,但他回答了。)
易:The PLO is a coalition of Palestinian organizations and political parties, it was able to demonstrate on apolitical level the Palestinian identity, similar to what the Palestinian literature were able to do on a humanitarian level. Hamas, on the other hand,represents a different political perspective than that of the PLO, a perspective that emphasizes on the internationally accepted right to resistance as a way to get rid of the occupation and achieve peace. Hamas was welcomed among the Palestinian people who lost faith in the peace process after 15 years in useless negotiation with Israel that led nowhere. When a free and fair election was organized in the occupied territories under Western supervision,? Hamas won the election and as expected the Western countries rejected Hamas leadership. Myself, I am not a religious person, but I also do not support the right wing that leads the PLO. What I support is beyond political Palestinian parties whether the PLO or Hamas, it is even beyond the Western countries and Israel, what I support is the rights of the Palestinians to be free from occupation, to have their own independent state, to be able to provide safe life and education to their children and to be able to protect their children from this barbarian killing.
(巴解组织是巴勒斯坦人组织和政党的联合体,它曾经在政治层面上代表了巴勒斯坦,如同巴勒斯坦文学代表了人文层面。相比之下,哈马斯代表的是不同的政治观念,他们的目标是获得国际上的认可,抗拒并摆脱占领,赢得和平。在与以色列谈判了15年无果之后,许多巴勒斯坦人对和平失去了信心,哈马斯在这些人中间受到欢迎。在西方的监督下,在被占领的土地上,举行了自由公正的选举,哈马斯赢了,结果如同预料的,西方不予承认。我本人不是有虔诚信仰的人,也不支持领导巴解组织里的右翼。我支持的是那种超越政治的巴勒斯坦党派,既不是巴解组织,也不是哈马斯,也不是那种与以色列或西方有瓜葛的。我支持巴勒斯坦人获得自由的权利,取得最后的独立,能够提供安全的生活,孩子们能得到教育,能够保护他们免受这次野蛮的杀戮。)
愿上苍保佑你们,和平尽早降临,谢谢你回答我们的问题。
十分遗憾的是,著名的巴勒斯坦作家穆里德・阿尔-巴固蒂(MURID AL-BARGUTI)――住在巴勒斯坦的拉马拉,和塔哈尔・里雅(TAHER RIYA)没有回答我的问题,我还和其中的一位通了长途电话。或许,他们心中有某种顾虑。
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